Posts by the girl next door

47

YMCA ? Are we allowed to go there or not?

by Quarterback in

half of our congregation goes there to work out because of the good pool facilities and prices, and the other half think that it's wrong due to it's old charter.

but no one is enforcing the wrong or right of it.

i'd be interested in knowing how this is being applied worldwide.

the girl next door

I just get the day pass once a year to take my girls to "halloween horror night" at a local amusement park. Bus ride, dinner and drinks. That shouldn't stumble anyone, should it?

47

YMCA ? Are we allowed to go there or not?

by Quarterback in

half of our congregation goes there to work out because of the good pool facilities and prices, and the other half think that it's wrong due to it's old charter.

but no one is enforcing the wrong or right of it.

i'd be interested in knowing how this is being applied worldwide.

the girl next door

full article:

*** w79 1/1 30-1 Questions from Readers ***

Is it true that for religious reasons Jehovahs Witnesses may not become members of the YMCA (YoungMens Christian Association)?

Yes, that is so

. We have long recognized that the YMCA, though not being a church as such, is definitely aligned with the religious organizations of Christendom in efforts to promote interfaith.

In September 1885 the Watch Tower took this position:

"Alas for the Bible-rearing practiced in the Y. M. C. Associations! They are completely under the control of the sectarians, by whom they are supported. Though professedly non-sectarian, professedly controlled by no creed but the Bible, they are more creed-bound than others, since they are bound by all the popular creeds."P. 6.

Later the underlying religious purpose and interfaith efforts of the YMCA were mentioned in the September 1964 issue of Kingdom Ministry, used by Jehovahs Witnesses in one of their meetings.

Many persons think of the "Y" simply as a social organization that offers various services, such as a swimming pool, facilities for athletic training and a place for clubs to meet. Commendable as some of these provisions may be, it is important to bear in mind that the YMCA was founded with a distinctly religious basis. This was set out at a World Alliance in Paris in 1855. The main part of that official statement (called the Paris Basis) reads:

"The Young Mens Christian Associations seek to unite those young men, who, regarding Jesus Christ as their Godand Saviour, according to the Holy Scriptures, desire to be His disciples in their faith and in their life, and to associate their efforts for the extension of His Kingdom amongst young men." (Italics added)

While in some countries churches may not be the YMCAs main source of revenue and while membership is open to persons of all races, nationalities and religions, the fundamental religious objectives of the "Y" cannot be ignored.

But, some may sincerely wonder, is religion or interfaith really an aspect of the YMCA? The answer must be "Yes." Though religious features may be de-emphasized in some branches of the YMCA, all local "Ys" are still expected to comply with the Paris Basis. Further, note comments from the 1975 YMCA publication Christian and Open:

Anza A. Lema, associate of the executive committee of the World Alliance of YMCAs, wrote:

"From its very foundation, it has always looked to the Bible for inspiration and guidance. In many ways its role in the world has tended to complement that of the church without claiming to be a congregation itself. . . .

"But it is more than just an instrument through which Christians put their moral ideals and teachings into practice as they serve society. Most supporters of the YMCA look at it as a place where real fellowship with one another through Jesus Christ is experienced. . . .

"In humbling itself and trying to relate its structures and services more directly to the community, it will be carrying out more effectively its role of service and priesthood for its neighbours. . . . "

Matthias Dannenmann, general secretary, National Council of YMCAs of Germany, said:

"From its very beginning the YMCA was no doubt meant to have only Christians as members and on the other hand there was the missionary obligation towards those members who could not yet profess Jesus Christ. . . .

"The YMCA is a big offer, but only in as far as Jesus Christ is working in it as Living Saviour. We should do our very best not to drive out this Lord but as we carry him in our name we should personally use every chance of meeting him in the YMCA and of continuously extending this possibility to other people."

Officials of the organization have pointed out that they feel that more attention needs to be given to the religious orientation of the YMCA. Dr. Paul M. Limbert, from 1952-1962 secretary-general of the YMCAs World Alliance in Geneva, Switzerland, wrote:

"It may readily be granted that too few Y.M.C.A.s take full advantage of the opportunity for ecumenical education inherent in these informal contacts among Christians . . .

"When questions about different forms and beliefs arise among young people and adults, the wise leader takes advantage of the occasion to guide discussion from superficial argument to deeper dialogue. . . .

Leaders in both churches and Y.M.C.A.s need to recognize more clearly the essential nature of a lay ecumenical Christian movement. A Young Mens Christian Association is not a church nor a substitute for a church. . . . Yet the Faith and Order commission of the British Council of Churches declared in a carefully worded statement in 1959 that the Christian Associations are valuable auxiliaries of the churches, organs of their own missionary activity."TheChristian Century, June 10, 1964.

And The Christian Century of August 29, 1969, in its article "Happy Birthday, Y.M.C.A.!", stated:

"Realizing that the Christian identity of the Y has often been drowned in swimming pools, its leaders are engaged in recovery of theological awareness and ecumenical vigor. . . . It may be that the greatest challenge to the Y.M.C.A. is to reclaim its religious heritage for the robust assertion of a new ecumenism among laymen in local communities. The Y.M.C.A. just might be able to do things for the Christian churches which, in their parochial rigidities, they seem unable to do for themselves."

Consequently, there is ample evidence that the YMCA originated with religious objectives and continues to have such to this day.

In joining the YMCA as a member a person accepts or endorses the general objectives and principles of the organization. He is not simply paying for something he receives, such as when buying things being sold to the public at a store. (Compare 1 Corinthians 8:10; 10:25.) Nor is his membership merely an entry pass, as when a person buys a theater ticket. Membership means that one has become an integral part of this organization founded with definite religious objectives, including the promotion of interfaith. Hence, for one of Jehovahs Witnesses to become a member of such a so-called "Christian" association would amount to apostasy.

Some individuals have on occasion not become members but have paid a onetime admission fee, viewing this as simply paying for a commercial service available. Even in this regard it is wise to consider whether this course will adversely affect the consciences of others.1 Cor. 8:11-13.

Jehovahs Witnesses, of course, appreciate a balanced amount of healthful exercise. The Bible says that "bodily training is beneficial for a little." Yet it adds that "godly devotion is beneficial for all things." (1 Tim. 4:8) That does not mean devotion to a triune God. The Bible does not teach that Jesus is "God" in a trinity, as is taught in many of Christendoms churches and as is still included in the "Paris Basis" of the YMCA.1 Cor. 11:3; John 17:3.

While interfaith efforts and ecumenism are popular today, they are not upheld by the true God, who told his servants: "Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. . . . Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves." (2 Cor. 6:14-17) Also, Jesus plainly said that the Almighty must be worshiped "with spirit and truth." (John 4:24) Most definitely that does not mean joining in a religious cause with persons holding beliefs contrary to what the Scriptures teach. (Rev. 18:4, 5) Thus, it is because of their understanding of what God expects of true worshipers, and of what the purposes and direction of the YMCA are, that Jehovahs Witnesses may not become members of that organization.

Further, it is well to give thought to the fact that in virtually all the years of the YMCAs existence, it has not acted in harmony with the spirit of Isaiah 2:2-4, as can be noted from the following historical facts:

"YMCA services to the armed forces began, in the United States, with the Civil War, and it continued giving service through all wars thereafter."Encyclopdia Britannica, Micropdia, Vol. X, p. 835, 1976 ed.

"In the Civil War, only ten years after its beginning in Boston, and before there were buildings or secretaries or financial resources, a total of 4,859 delegates were recruited and deployed and over six millions of donated funds used for the temporal and spiritual needs of soldiers. . . . In World War I, the American Y.M.C.A. assumed an enormous responsibility for service at home and abroad for which a staff of 25,926 was required with expenditures of more than 167 million dollars. In World War II, the Y.M.C.A. became one of the organizations that founded the United Service Organizations [USO], joining as a group of private religious organizations from Protestant, Catholic, and Jewish faiths in an agreement with the Federal government to provide civilian recreational, welfare, and religious services to men in uniform and to war-production workers in communities adjacent to military establishments."TheNew Funk & Wagnalls Encyclopedia, Vol. 36, pp. 13,467, 13,468, 1952 ed.

"YMCA activities for members of the armed forces began during the Civil War (1861-1865). These services increased with each later war and reached their fullest development during World War II (1939-1945). The YMCA maintained more than 450 clubs for the Allied armed forces."The World Book Encyclopedia, Vol. 21, p. 477, 1978 ed.

This kind of service under the name "Christian" was certainly not in fulfillment of Micah 4:3.

47

YMCA ? Are we allowed to go there or not?

by Quarterback in

half of our congregation goes there to work out because of the good pool facilities and prices, and the other half think that it's wrong due to it's old charter.

but no one is enforcing the wrong or right of it.

i'd be interested in knowing how this is being applied worldwide.

the girl next door

1/1/1979 Watchtower

Questions From Readers

In joining the YMCA as a member a person accepts or endorses the general objectives and principles of the organization. He is not simply paying for something he receives, such as when buying things being sold to the public at a store. (Compare 1 Corinthians 8:10; 10:25.) Nor is his membership merely an entry pass, as when a person buys a theater ticket. Membership means that one has become an integral part of this organization founded with definite religious objectives, including the promotion of interfaith. Hence, for one of Jehovah's Witnesses to become a member of such a so-called "Christian" association would amount to apostasy. Some individuals have on occasion not become members but have paid a onetime admission fee, viewing this as simply paying for a commercial service available. Even in this regard it is wise to consider whether this course will adversely affect the consciences of others? 1 Cor. 8:11-13.

9

Deborah

by berrygerry in

i, like many others, was furiously emailing about deborah when the issue of only male elders came up.. it seemed curious that angus didn't address deborah, as he surely knew of it.. thankfully, ol' geoff, and wt, cannot resist trying to get in a last word, which opened the door for angus.

(he's one cool customer.).

341 in his written statement provided to the royal commission following the close of thepublic hearing, mr jackson offered the relevant scriptural references to which headverted but was unable to provide during the hearing.

the girl next door

This would be Watchtower's spin:
The Aid to Bible Understanding book intentionally left Deborah out of the list of Judges.
1980 Watchtower explained why
QUESTIONS FROM READERS
● In view of Judges 4:4, can Deborah be viewed as one of the judges of ancient Israel, along with Samson, Gideon and others?
The Bible account at Judges 4:4 reads: “Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was judging Israel at that particular time.” Earlier, the account at Judges 2:16 says: “Jehovah would raise up judges, and they would save them out of the hand of their pillagers.” Thus the main work of a judge would be to save Israel from their enemies. It appears, then, that the phrase at Judges 4:4 about Deborah “judging Israel at that particular time” does not mean that Deborah was usurping the place of a man and that she was fulfilling all the duties of a judge in Israel. Unlike Samuel, Gideon or other judges she did not judge all Israel and act as their deliverer or “savior.” In fact, at Nehemiah 9:27 the term “saviors” is used rather than “judges.”—Compare Judges 3:9, 15.Being a prophetess, Deborah told Barak what Jehovah’s will was in the matter. She was used by Jehovah to call Barak to serve as judge for the overthrow of the enemy. Barak served as the “savior” provided by Jehovah, not Deborah, although Barak asked that Deborah go with him. So it is most unlikely that Deborah performed all the duties usually associated with the office of a judge in Israel, the most prominent of which was leading the tribes in warfare against Jehovah’s enemies.Thus, while Deborah can properly be described as a prophetess, it is only in a general sense that she was doing a measure of judging in Israel; she was not taking the full place of a male judge in Israel. Judges 4:5 says: “She was dwelling under Deborah’s palm tree between Ramah and Bethel in the mountainous region of Ephraim; and the sons of Israel would go up to her for judgment.” As for the matter of giving the Israelites Jehovah’s answer to difficult problems that would come up, this she could do because of Jehovah’s spirit being upon her. In contrast, Barak certainly was one who effected deliverance for the Israelites. The reasonable conclusion to draw is that Barak was a judge in the full sense of the word, and this is in accord with Hebrews 11:32, where he ranks among the judges of ancient Israel. Thus the book Aid to Bible Understanding, on page 980, in listing the judges of Israel, does not include Deborah."

31

Sometimes I think Jehovah's Witnesses overuse the word "historic"

by slimboyfat in

at the beginning of the may broadcast stephen lett said this was a historic broadcast.

he explained that every member of the governing body had hosted a show and they were starting over again.

that was all the explanation he gave.

the girl next door

The only thing "historic" about Watchtower presently, is they are getting their a$$E$ handed to them by the Australian Royal Commission.

60

Watchtower's response to Royal Commission shows they have learned nothing and will do nothing

by wannaexit in

jw
friends

i've quickly read through watchtower's submission to the royal commission.

seems like they aren't planning to change policy anytime soon.

they are critical of how the royal commission handled the situation.. the tone is of the submission is shear arrogance.

the girl next door

29

Impact of the Royal Commission of Inquiry on JW policies and procedures

by steve2 in

the royal commission is not yet over.

the summary of findings on jws is not the end of the story.

the legal process is unfolding and the only open question is the extent to which jw organization in australia will be legally mandated to change its policies and procedures on child sexual abuse.. (on the question of shunning those who leave, the commission is well intended but has strayed beyond its legal brief.

the girl next door

I think the shunning issue is apt to the situation of those abused being manipulated by the fear of shunning. It had to be fleshed out by the Commission to display the full impact of how shunning could never be "best standard" of care for abuse victims.

Watchtower is definitely learning lessons, despite the stance they take in written response. They are taking a huge hit in PR, which affects their bottom line. JWs will leave. There will be fewer converts. Nobody likes an organization that protects pedophiles and puts themselves above the best interests of children.

75

Australian Royal Commission Findings released

by Mephis in

will just post the general findings by counsel for the commission (angus stewart) - case specific ones are prior to them.

in short, absolutely damning.. not been through every submission myself yet.

available for download here: http://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/case-study/636f01a5-50db-4b59-a35e-a24ae07fb0ad/case-study-29,-july-2015,-sydney.aspx.

the girl next door

Watchtower is on their heels with the Commission still coming at them. Watchtower's responses are just more fodder for Angus to formulate even more damning opinions.

60

Watchtower's response to Royal Commission shows they have learned nothing and will do nothing

by wannaexit in

jw
friends

i've quickly read through watchtower's submission to the royal commission.

seems like they aren't planning to change policy anytime soon.

they are critical of how the royal commission handled the situation.. the tone is of the submission is shear arrogance.